www.mastersofthefield.com

[HWK]GeXozoid · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 355 Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia

As you may recall i 've toled all of you that i will make only 120 formations so i can balance up more easily!

Well i the only possible formation size for inf. will be the 100 troops (it aint to small like 72, and it aint to big like 120 and still the line formation is consisted of 3 rows not 4 like the 120 man formations so you get the historical accuarcy touch to the game Razz

)

Also some other news are that the musket damage for regular troops has been cut to half (From ACs 600 to my mods 300) so when 2 formations of regular troops (by regular i mean fusilier or musketeers) confront on their biggest range, just a few units will die (2-5) at a closer distance (i mean realy close) the damage will be devastating ... at least 30 man dead per formation!

But some other troops, like light infantry (in the british army) and voltigeur (in the french army) will have the damage of 400 and a big greater range! And non formatinal (first contact ) troops like chasseurs and jagers will have a damage of 600, and a lot greater range but also they will reload a lot!

The reload time has been incressed by 2... it was 400 in the beta now its 800 for regulars ( 850 for milita, 750 for grenadires and elite and 1100 for jager, chasseurs etc.)

Also i have balanced up the formation types... for example a line formation on move will have a bouns to defence and a bit bigger bouns when its on stand ground, but it will have a very small bouns in both (while on stand ground or not)! While the column formation will have a bouns to attack while on stand ground, and a very good bouns to attack when moveing (So if you charge with bayos like french did, you will most likely use column formation cause it is most effective) and a small defence bouns in both, but it wont be very likely that you will use column formation when exchangeing volley fire since the troops are to massed up so they become easy targets, and not all troops can fire (maybe 4 front ranks out of 10)! In the square formaation, the troops get a bonus for defence and attack, a very good defence bonus, and a good for attack, but the attack bouns isnt as good as the column one... and the bounses take effect in square formation only if the unit is on stand ground (otherwise its a very low bonus)!

Also i ve been working on cavalry a bit...! the only formation size for cavalry will be 45 (dont worry about the size, cause the cav. will be very verstile and effective .. as a regard to AC)

The fire damage in the mod for cav. should be something like this ( hussars - 150, cuirassier - 100, dragoons and chasseur a cheval -200)

Another thing i found in AC that is totaly usless are the apperance of the formations for cav. cause the form it self doesnt give any advantage or disadvantage! So i ve been redoing them ... the pyramid formation has been changed to a quazi half circle formation... it will be great for cold stell cavalry charges (cause it will give a great bouns to attack and a bouns to defence) but only when the cav. is on the move, cause if in that formation the cav. unit is set to stand ground it will get a small defence bouns and no bonus to attack)! The line formation stays as it is (2 lines) and it will get a fine bonus to defence when on stand ground, but no bonus to attack (such formation will be good for range fire), and last is the column formation... it will consist of 3 lines (each with 15 units of course) and it will give a bonus to defence when on stand ground, and a bit better one when moveing, also it will have a good attack bonus!

And i gave up the idea for the charge speed for inf. but the cav. will move all with same speed (80 speed) except when you order them to attack or attack on the way (heavy cav. 100, medium cav. 120, light cav. 140 speed)

That would be all i hope you like the changes i made to the game... also this will make the battle it self last a bit longer, the volley exchange and the formation type will get a greater importance, like you will defenetly use the new wedge formation when chargeing on inf. and you will defenetly order your troops to form a square when you see the enemy cav. also if you choose the bayo attack you will most probably attack with a column formation!

And all of these changes bring a new aspect to the game, cause before you only recived good bonuses if you were on stand ground which is a big unrealistic especially for cav. so from now on it dependes which formation it is!
_________________

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is makeing a mistake "

Napoleon Bonaparte

[HWK]THE_DRAKE · Site Admin Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 264

Well,

Some very good things here GEX, very good. I like what you have done with the re-load times, differentiating between Regulars, militia, "sharpshooters" etc. Also, the benefits for attack in Column will be great for bayonet charge. Cavalry semi-circle, good stuff. Some questions;

1) "for example a line formation on move will have a bouns to defence and a bit bigger bouns when its on stand ground, but it will have a very small bouns in both (while on stand ground or not)!" We all see the crowding forward en-masse that usually happens in battle, and masses of troops look NOTHING like a line, though they are technically in that formation....perhaps this bonus for line formation should ONLY be when they are on Stand Ground and be substantial enough to encourage one to form his army in good proper lines instead of hoarding forward.

2) You say that you will have a "charge" speed for horse and troops. This would be great if it could be limited or troops that "charge" start to see real effects on their moral, fire-power, etc if they charge to long. Otherwise, whole armies will be "charging" to one side of the map and "charging" to the other at no "cost".

3) You talk about "Attack" bonuses for different formations...for instance the attack bonus of Column. Are you distinguishing between "cold steel" attack and "fire" attack? If not, perhaps the column formation SHOULD have this distinction, having a heavy "cold steel" attack advantage over other formations instead of the general Attack advantage...this would encourage a commander, knowing that it now takes awhile for the enemy to re-load, to order a bayonet charge in Column formation with good confidance that it will break through a line which has no such cold steel advantage and whos fire advantage might not be brought to bare before the column closes with them.
_________________

See you on the field,

THE DRAKE

[HWK]GeXozoid · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 355 Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia

Glad you read throught my whole post, lol was a long one wasn't it Razz

Well, both on stand ground and on moveing line gets a defence bonus, but when moveing its really small and when on stand ground its a good solid one!

Only cav. will have a charge speed, cause of some problems i found, so thats a must have in my mod! Well i REALLY wanted to add some minus to the morale when cav. charges to much or some tiredness effect which also effects morale, but sadly it isnt possible! But a good thing is when you move the whole cav. (no mather what type) they will all come to desired position at the same time (unless you order them to charge)!

THe attack bonus is ONLY for cold steel, the only thing that can benefit the fire attack is the formation of your troops, and thats the line formation (cause in column half of the regiment can't shoot)!

Hope you like what you read Razz

Gex
_________________

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is makeing a mistake "

Napoleon Bonaparte

[HWK]THE_DRAKE · Site Admin Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 264

Ah, good, yes, thanks for your response GEX, good answers.
_________________

See you on the field,

THE DRAKE

[HWK]axlethehawk · Posted: Sun Feb 27, 2005 7:52 pm Post subject:

Bravo !!!

_________________

[hwk] axlethehawk ( DIPLOMATIC LIAISSON )

[HWK]Greenwarrior · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 290 Location: A BLUE STATE!

Well here is my 2 cents..

I dont think u should mess around with formation sizes and reload times,....

Reasons why....

u can have up to 16.000 troops in FB that adds to 160 formations in the map... thats a huge amount for anyoen to control. I am still saddened by teh fact there wont be 196 formations in c2 considering its gonna be 64k units.

Second... Fb games can sometimes last over 2 hours, and that is with teh normal load time and sometimes with ups... if you do those kinds of things our games r gonna be able to last twice that, and that is not necessarilky a good thing, people will get bored, i sure as well would liek to play 3 or 4 1 hour games than 1 or 2 2-3 hour games, its more exciting...

Sometimes realism is not all that, I would advice you do not tinker with such things.... remmeber this is just a game, FB is fun as it is, 2 much realism can hurt a game even if people ask for it. Hear my words. It will be quite boring sitting oin teh screens seeing how troops take forever to fire a damn shot, in the beta it was long as it is, and i acceoted that, but now u want to double that ,.. NO way!

Green

Green
_________________
"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained"

aggie_john · Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 12:59 am Post subject:

I have to totally disagree with [HWK]Greenwarrior on changing reload times and formations. 120 is good and easy to control. The reload time allows for better battles, due to slower resolving skirmishes between formations.

Also by reducing fortifications power the fight will be decided in the open field not in long and boreing seiges with are what really make AC games 4 hours which I agree are to long. I would rather have an 30 min game with one great battle than 4 hours of pounding buildings with cannons until I have backed the enemy into some conner which they can not escape.

[HWK]Greenwarrior · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 290 Location: A BLUE STATE!

u dont agree with me on the 120 formation??? i am for the 120 formation gex wants to minimize that to 100!!!!! I think you should read my post better.. 120 is a great number.

2nd i am not talking bout buildings here, i never was, dont know where that came from, as that issue has already been resolved by gex..

3rd, am sure u have played teh beta right??? well teh reload time is well slow, and he wants to double the reload time. The reload time of the beta is fine, hell i think the reload time of Fb is perfect i have no problems with it, doubling the reload time, is a big no no imho.

you and I seem to like fast paced games aggie, thats what i want.

Also at close range a volley is just going to kill 30 men???? what!! at close range a volley should shred to pieces a formation as is teh case in FB, the shot power should not be changed either, cutting it from 600 to 300 is wayyy 2 much, lets be realistic, getting hit by thsoe kinds of bullets would surely put you out of action the first time around...

dont alter teh show power so much please, i want firepower to be like in Fb there is nothing sweeter than shredding formations with 1 well timed volley

Green

Cheers

Green
_________________
"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained"

[HWK]THE_DRAKE · Site Admin Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 264

"Under optimum conditions a trained soldier could expect to fire his weapon two to three times a minute and with luck, hit a target up to 150 yards. To make the most out of this short range, inaccurate, slow firing weapon, troops were typically arrayed in linear formation three ranks deep to bring the greatest volume of fire" to bear.

http://www.napoleonseries.org/articles/military/innovations.cfm

"Napoleon spoke of the inaccuracy of muskets. He preached that linear formations should only be two rows deep as the first line would be in danger of being struck by the third line. Though this tactic was essential to battlefield success prior to the Civil War it was now disastrous. The fact that the Civil War soldier could now hit what he aimed at made all the soldiers on the field in formation 'sitting Ducks'".

http://www.civilwarhome.com/napoleontactics.htm

There seems to be conflicting evidence on this matter gents, as to wether standard lines of Naloeon's time were 2 or 3 rowas deep.....which will directly bear on wether formations should be 100 or 120 men...anybody have anything else on this matter?

_________________

See you on the field,

THE DRAKE

[HWK]GeXozoid · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 355 Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia

First off, the size of the formation:

i've changed it cause it is to big, and don't worry it doesn't colapse to soon... its just perfect, and another thing i would rather have 10 formations of 100 troops than 10 formations of 120 and getting the game to chrash! Also i was always annoyed by the 4 lines of the 120 men, and if i placed 120 in three lines, it would have been a huge line with thoes humangus spaceings in AC!

Than about the reload time:

in AC the reload time is totaly inaccurate and it destoried a whole type of warfare, when was the last time any of you bayonet charged? yes it was too suicidal cause while you fired your volley (and your enemy did) and you issued a bayo charge, on the half way to the enemy they would give you a second dedly volley... and here is a continu on that damage issue (cause theses 2 are cross connected)... the lowering of the reload time gives you time to make a bayo charge (if you want to but still it isnt very effective on the morale... you realy need to know when to attack or you will fail) and when you place a line to fire it doesnt colapse immidietly but they fire at each other for few volleys (like in the napoleonic era) cause usually armies did fire few volleys, even a doosen without no effect and they would charge afterwords! Also this give you the time to see what is happening on the other side of the battlefield without loseing you whole flank!

Damage issue:

i am still balancing it up but here is some info on it:

-a fusilier (regular or a musketeer) or a milita (voulenteer unit) will at maximum range kille around 5 enemy troops, at the middle range they will kill around 15-20, and at a really close range they will kill more than 30 (it depends it could be 30 it could even be 45 or something like that)
-a voltigeur (or a light infantryman or even the elite rifleman) are the next type... they wil kill on max range (and also they have a bit increesed range) 5-10, on middle 20-25 and on max even to 50 (but keep in mind they are realy weak on in cold steel, so if you dont succed in routing the enemy formation at that range your scrwed)
-grenadire well he is more with a fusilier type of damage (but a bit more accurate one) and a bit faster reload, and they have the best cold steel attack so they dont have to worry like light infantryman
-chasseur (jager and such) have the biggest range, but the slowest reload time. they move around 25% faster than other inf. troops. they have the strongest fire power (but the weakest cold steel) at max range they can even kill to 15 enemy troops.

So i hope now you understand me green why have i so alterd the game... cause i wanted to give each type of unit some specialties ... now you want throw all the inf. at one bunch at the enemy like you did in the EW mod BETA... but you will realy think which unit you can use to its maximum!

PS

i ve been playing with the morale system to... you gonna love it Razz

PPS

and green if this type of balancing turns up to be a faliure i will change it, but i think it wont... so wait and see Wink

_________________

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is makeing a mistake "

Napoleon Bonaparte

[HWK]axlethehawk · Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 2:18 pm Post subject:

I have never truly researched the evidence relating to firing times etc, but what I shall say is that I fully suport whatever actions Gex has taken to make this mod work to the best of its potential.

Let's not forget that he, along with other select players have been playing round with this for months and surely they must know how the individual and the joint actions of the units are going to best work.

I also believed when I realised that CII will only have small regts. that maybe this is to cut down on possible game crashes, even though we have come to believe that too many small regts. in Fb can cause a grame to crash.

I say we leave Gex to finish off and then let's see how it plays when finished.
he must be extremely confident because he even states in his last post above that he would even change the balancing if it proves not to work. Very Happy

_________________

[hwk] axlethehawk ( DIPLOMATIC LIAISSON )

aggie_john · Posted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 5:40 pm Post subject:

[HWK]Greenwarrior, Sorry about the the buildings comment that was just my two cents.
As for 100 or 120 I can play it either way. I would strongly support the more realist approach however. The realism of the game is its strenght. The more of it the better, the point is to emerse your self in the combat of the Napoleonic wars. Dont get me wrong I belive in good game play, but I feel that by definition gameplay is how a game makes realistic combat possible.

[HWK]THE_DRAKE · Site Admin Joined: 21 Apr 2004 Posts: 264

Yes,

I agree, I actually am very excited about these moral and reload changes....like Aggie says it will make it easier for us to immerse ourselves in the feel of Napoleonic Warfare....and dittoing Axle, Im sure GEX has researched the hell out of these statistics. Yeah, Lines should be able to stand there and fire a few volleys at each other for awhile, this is good stuff and sure it will be slower if you want to kill everyone in site but it's realistic, good stuff GEX, I REALLY looking forward to it!
_________________

See you on the field,

THE DRAKE

Blackpool · Joined: 11 May 2004 Posts: 47 Location: Canberra, Australia

Hi there Gex,

I am all for your changes (apart from garrisioning buildings though) and you really seem to have put a lot of thought, research and work into the strengths/weaknesses of each troop type to make them as realistic as possible.

I do a a few questions about your AI. Will your AI work better in using units and would they use the tactic of firing at close range and then charging in with bayonets? Will units work together co-operatively and will the pull back voluntarily rather than stay and be slaughtered?

I realise that building an good AI is extremely difficult so you may not have an answer to such questions.

Cheers,
Blackpool

[HWK]GeXozoid · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 355 Location: Dubrovnik, Croatia

Well, the best AI modder at this time (JAREMA) promissed me to make at least one nations AI, so you will probably have to ask him, but i will try to ask him to make it as realistic as possible!
_________________

"Never interrupt your enemy when he is makeing a mistake "

Napoleon Bonaparte

	www.mastersofthefield.com Forum Index -> European Warfare MOD Center	All times are GMT + 1 Hour Goto page 1, 2 Next
Page 1 of 2