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Elv · Posted: Sat May 15, 2004 9:56 pm Post subject: Army lists

OK New topic. I have a troop breakdown for Crecy.

As you all know we have to choose or troops just before the battle starts. We cannot put them on the map in advance, like we do with Cossacks.

At Crecy in 1346 we must choose the Crecy battle map. English defend and the French attack.

English had 3,900 Knights at the battle and I suggest a mix of Feudal Foot Knights and Men at Arms to represent these. There were also 11,000 Archers and I suggest all should be Longbowmen. Also there were 5,000 light troops and for these I suggest an even split of Spermen and Peasants.

French had 12,000 Mounted Knights which are represented by Feudal Knights. There were 6,000 Genoese Crossbow men. 20,000 of the army were Militia and I suggest an even split of Spearmen, peasants and Men at Arms to represent these troops.

Now we have the historical line up, we have to interpret it in unit battle size.

It is obviouse that the French army should be almost double that of the English.

Since foot units are bigger than mounted units, this means that the English are going to have to settle for no more than 6 units in one to one games. Half the army was Archers so that makes 3 units of Archers. One of gothic Foot Knights or Men at Arms and 1 of Spearmen and one of Peasants. In four player games there would be 6 units each for the English and that would mean double the above except that Knights and Men at Arms could be represeted properly so that there would be 1X Kinghts and 1X Men at Arms. Then 2X Spearmen and 2X Peasants. Then there would be 6X Longbows. It is easy to see how this can be adapted with up to four players per side.

The French get 2X Pavise Crossbowmen; 10X Feudal Knights (Mounted) and 2X Peasants and 1X Feudal Men at Arms and 1X Spearmen. You can double up on these if two players etc....

OK so how is that fair I hear all the MTW players say because all their games are balanced on points known as Florins. To make it fair there are only 7,000 Florins to spend in the one on one games. That means the English can get extra valour or armour or weapons and the French must settle for basic troops.

This I think will make the challenge both fair and historically accurate. If all MTW hawks keep an army list for each of our battles, we will indeed be true to history and provide a unique historical experience for others who want to join us.

I have written all of the above so you can see how I have done it when you plan your own battles. I will produce easily printed army lists for each battle.

Please remember that Crecy should be in fine weather and the terrain should be fairly lush and Western European. The late period should also be chosen for the battle too.

Who will be the master of Crecy then? Looks pretty darn tough to me. The English will have to spend their Florins very wisely to ensure they are not just swept away in a massive Cavalry charge.

Elv.

Hope to play you all at Crecy 1346
_________________
He either fears his fates too much
Or his desires are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Montrose - The great hero and martyr

Sharpe · Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 5:34 am Post subject:

good work elv but the more i look at mtw the more i think it wouldnt be very good for historical battles

i mean 6 units for the english would be a massacre, longbows on the game are nowhere near as powerful as they really were, plus with only 3 foot units they would be easily outflanked and crushed

plus if 1 of englands 3 foot units was peasents or spearmen they would cause a chain route an end the battle extremely quickly

P.S i think the english had holibars on there right flank with the ribalds. I really hae no idea how a historical battle could really be made 2 work on the mtw engine

i have a few ideas that i will develop an present later to try an fix the problems
_________________

Over the hills an over the main, Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain, King George commands an we obey, Over the hills and faraway!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elv · Posted: Sun May 16, 2004 10:42 pm Post subject: Crecy

I agree, it does sound bad and Longbows are not nearly as effective as they perhaps were. The Hobilars were small and largely unaffective remember. Hobilars were really for chasing off routers. you could argue that the English forces were too good to have any peasants too. We can discuss historical realism in more detail. Let's do that. The battle is balanced on points/florins of course and Falcon and I will play test it to see. If not, I will search for a historical prescedent to change it. For now, the version I have come up with seems historicallay accurate.

I see your point about hawks battles and MTW not being suitable because MTW battles are an integral part of the game and armies can be chosen at the start of the battle and are balanced on points. The only way to define ourselves is to adhere to the historical facts. Our battles should be an education in history as well as a fun game.

It is possible to make the English bigger. In a three player game the English would have 12 units and the French 32 with the French being played by two players with 16 units each.

Open to ideas mate, but not if it moves away from the actual army lists on the day. It is important to me that we reflect exactly what happened in history: that is our forte.

Let me know mate.

Elv.
_________________
He either fears his fates too much
Or his desires are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Montrose - The great hero and martyr

Sharpe · Posted: Mon May 17, 2004 10:01 pm Post subject:

i suggest each side has the same amount of units. the big numerical the french historically had difference can be offset by just leaving out a big part of the french army aka the peasent levy and militia troops as it was really only the french knights an crossbows actually made a difference anyways. i would suggest u made this a 3 or 4 player map, but the fact is i know for a fact that if u give 1 side more then 2 more units then the other they will most certainly win! if u tryed the way u said givein the french a 2-1 advantage u screw the english because u get a BIG! morale penalty if out numbered by more then 1 or 2 units. so heres a suggestion for a fair army list. english 8 longbows, 4 chivilric maa 2 feudal foot knights 1 mounted chivilric knights unit an 1 unit of holibars. french 4 feudal mounted knights 6 chivilric mounted knights 4 gendarms and 2 feudal foot knight units, to make it more realistic still add a 3rd player as french an have him take 8 crossbow units, NO PAVISES! these guys would represent the 6,000 genoese crossbowman who started the battle, and it will give the frogs a bit of a chance vs the hail of arrows!

i seriously think not counting the hoard of french militia an peasents will allow for an even battle that is also fun! my unit roster with 3 players is historically accurate! those hoards of peasents had no effect on the battles out come so discouning them should offer no problems. plus if u gave the english 6 units i gurantee the battle would be over in minutes an would really be no fun, so consider my unit lists and i hope this helps!

_________________

Over the hills an over the main, Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain, King George commands an we obey, Over the hills and faraway!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sharpe · Posted: Tue May 18, 2004 11:04 pm Post subject:

i understand elv that the 2-1 would be the historical odds but would make gameplay shit, i know for a fact that a 2v1 gurantees an easy victory for the french, so check out the army lists i provided above, they reflect the historical situation well and even the battle out so the french hold the troop advantage but the english can still win
_________________

Over the hills an over the main, Through Flanders, Portugal and Spain, King George commands an we obey, Over the hills and faraway!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Elv · Posted: Wed May 19, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject: Crecy

I agree with this list. It is easy enough to modify unit stats to make them as powerful as they were on the day but that will keep. Your idea of not representing the troops that were not used, because they were useless, is a good one.

Get your Crecy army list on the Mastersofthefield website alongside the Hawks battle maps when we have play tested it a few times.
_________________
He either fears his fates too much
Or his desires are small
Who dares not put it to the touch
To win or lose it all

Montrose - The great hero and martyr

[HWK]o0O0o · Guest

english should definately have no peasants- they were a small professional army- i reckon longbows, knights (on foot) and some mounted ones hould do it.....spearmen 2 will be needed tho i guess or english cant win v french mounted