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[HWK]Greenwarrior · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 276 Location: A BLUE STATE!

Hey guys again just random thinking, but maybe some of you guys who been in the military can shed some light on an issue i been wondering for a long time...

Back in teh day teh colors of a regiment were one of teh most precisou things, especially in battle since men gave their lives protecting their colors with flag bearers in no shortage...

What i want to know is what happens when a regiment (and you hear this especially alot during the napoleonic as well as during the US civil war ) looses his colors in combat...

So if they lost their colors, as a punishment they will never get another for the entire duration of the conflict.. would a regiment who lost teh colors get their colors back if tehy capture teh colors of an enemy regiment?

More precisely what is the punishment for loosing the regimental colors cause i mean if they would just get brand new ones if they lost it then it makes no sense for men to risk their lives for it if they can just get another at the end of the battle...

I understand loosing your colors must be horible to a regiment i imagine the shame they must feel... well just curious..

Green!
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Kosciuszko · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 254 Location: Poland

hi m8
Intresting topic

Hawever this tradition is universal no matter what time, what a culture -colours of regiments or flags are most importand for soldiers
The most intresting is antique time. For Roman something the most sait was EAGLE - each legion has his own EAGLE - loosing eagle - it was mean something horrible - hawever i never heard about any administration punishment . But soldiers which lost legion were called cowards, banned from army, rest of soldiers didnt want to fight together with them.

OFcource the wrost what could happend it was when enemy captured EAGLE. During battle of Pydna ( war with Macedonia ) Eagle of legion was captured by enemy phalangs. When commander of legion ( not army ) sow it - he said to get it back or to die. There was no third option. MOst of legionarist made desperated and suicidal attack on macedonian phalangs, many died hawever they furiatic attack was so strong that phaland started be pushing back and romans get their Eagle back.

When August - Octavian was ceasar - the greatest roman defeat happpend in Teuboborg Forest. 4 LEgions under Varrus were masacred by Germans. Varrus committed suicide. 4 Eagles were captured and hidden somewhere in Germania.

So big ambitius of many another general was to brings back theese Eagles to Roma. The greatest was general Germanic - which made few expeditions into GErmania and after many battles found 3 Eagles. He was going to find the last one but stupid Tyberius send him into another area ( Tyberius was jealous cos Germanic started be very popular as greatest general ). Hawever Roman never forget about the last EAgle - and when Claudius ( This Cla - Clau - Claudius from famous tv movie ) started be a Ceasar he swear that he will recover it. And he made it. Another armys under Galba and Gallus were send into Germania and after many battles they found the last eagle - hidden in barbarian temple.

AS i remember similar was medieval time - when capturing enemy flag during battle means victory.
Napoleon army copied little bit Roman custom - i mean they call regiments flags EAGLE too. Each corps had golden Eagle ( which looks similar as roman eagle ) HAwever during Russia war - when Great Army was retreating -they lost so many eagles.

Army of Duchy of Warsaw was created on french pattern and regiments uses Eagles too -but they were silver eagles. MAny french historians and wittnes of russian disaster said that during retreat only guards and poles had still hight morale. After disaster main general of polish corps Prince POniatowski was very depressed that so many of his soldiers died ( not under his command but under few french generals ) and rest looks now like skeleton army. But one day maybe many solders come to his hause, and said they want to see their general. This soldiers come to show their general that they didnt lost any of their eagles ! POniwatowski started to cry when he sow haw great soldiers he has. He said later that this eagles were never really specially important for him, cos they only symbols, thats why he never even checked if anyone could be lost. He said later that he never was so happy like that time when he was so proud of his small but brave army. Wintess were shocked by this scene. Army of skeletons , in rest of uniforms, each wounded , is laughing, singing the songs and drinking a wine and talking that soon they will be ready to go ones again into Russia under Poniatowski. General invited all soldiers to his hause and was talking with them all the night.

This last story is good example for question of french eagles. They were importand but not as in roman empire. After such disaster like Russia proboblly any general was remember about Eagle of their regiment ( cos his "regiment" was rather "theory" now ) French army lost most of them during evacuation from Russia but nothing specially wrong happend ( Napoleon organized soon new army with new eagles ) Poles didnt lost any eagle - but it was only importand for themself, as a proofe of their desperation and brave. Ofcource - speciall care about eagle and flags was amost awarded by generals with orders and better payment but i dont think so someone could be punished for losing the eagle or discrimiated in army ( as it was during ROman ) The regiments which never lost eagle ( like Old Guards ) had great prestige and even enemy respected such soldiers.

And last thing - personally im coward and im enaught brave to confirm it in this poll as third answer. ( the second one options sounds false like a good exuse for others cowards )

regards
kosc
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Kosciuszko · Joined: 30 Apr 2004 Posts: 254 Location: Poland

Here is Roman Eagle ( but its just poor imitation - no legion description - no any special "battle sentence" ) :

and here is Napoleonic Eagle :

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(...)" Thucydides says only that he had seven ships it was winter and he sailed quickly"

[HWK]axlethehawk · Posted: Thu Sep 23, 2004 3:29 pm Post subject:

Simple really........ Yes I would!!

Ain't no damned foreigner laying his hands on my regimental colours Twisted Evil

....the colours which have seen action with our forefathers..the colours which signify "who we are" and just as importantly "where we are " on the field of battle.

It's bad enough to lose your regiment and become detached from them during a heated battle, but to be unable to identify them on the field because the colours have been lost is even worse.

The men you train alongside with, to watch each others backs in times of trouble and fight to the death if need be are the guys you want to be stood side by side with, if the worst should occur!!

You fight harder and braver when you are with the soldiers who are your friends, rather than any other soldier present on the field.

The colours are far more important than some mere symbol.......it represents who you are!!! With your colours held high , everyone can account for your regiment's actions on the field and hopefully see how bravely you have fought as a regiment....lose the colours and your regiment too is lost....how can people say......yes, did you see how well they fought .......did you see how they held their lines against such enormous odds......did you see how they broke the enemy lines and won the day!! If you have no colours to be identified with, then you are nobody!!

It's not a "fool" who picks up the colours and becomes a "primary" target for every enemy soldier within shooting distance, but a "hero", because you are committing yourself to your fellow comrades to keep the fight going until you can no longer do so.

Any man holding the colours can pretty much count on "every man from his regiment" throwing himself in harms way to protect the colours and the bearer of the colours and so this scenario works two-fold!!

You may become the primary target for the enemy, but you also become the most prized possession of your regiment and every last man will fight to the death to protect what you are holding. And you know that should you fall whilst carrying out this duty, the next man will be there to take your place "probably" before you've even hit the floor.

I would say two words describe why soldiers don't want to lose their colours and the same would also account for why they don't hesitate to "take up the colours" and those are "PRIDE and HONOUR"

P.S. "Keep your filthy hands off my colours" Twisted Evil

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jib · Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 141 Location: Somerset, England,

Well inthe british army, if one the colour ensigns was felled his covering sergant would pick it up and carry on then officers would be the ones expected to pick up the tab.( You dont want the common privates to touch the most expensive items in the regiment! They may have muckey hands! )

Besides traditionally if you were an infantoryman with a musket your main priority is to shoot the enemy with muskets who can shoot at you. sod flags, they ain't gonna kill you.
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[IG]Hipolit · Joined: 11 Sep 2004 Posts: 35 Location: Poland

I think that I'd like to do my stuff, just... if I were flag banner, I would be lieying dead on the field...LOL, but if I would be musketer, I would try to do my best, shooting at enemies to hold positions or to advance!

[HWK]Hipolit
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claudius · Joined: 05 Jul 2004 Posts: 9 Location: Oshawa, Ontario

The only good thing about being the flag man is that your always right -- the rest of the line dresses to the colours.

If I was going to be in a real 18th/19th century battle (just in case someone goes and invents a time machine, straps me in and set it to 1812), I'd join the light infantry (in Canada the Glengaries or Voltageurs) cause you wear camaflage (dark green or grey), sneak around in the bushes or take cover if available, use your own gun smoke to hide your movements, you're spread out too thinly for artillery to be effective, you fire at will, don't follow the flag, and get to withdraw as soon as the enemy line comes into view (of course if the enemy has calvary you're screwed, but that was a rarity in North America and occassionally, but not too often, your own guys shot at you).

Claudius

The Countess · Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 215 Location: Stockholm, Sweden

Well, yes I would pick up the flag if I'm an officer, that's my duty. But as a mere private I would not. It's better concentrating on shooting.
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Sharpe · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 2:26 pm Post subject:

o of course ill pick it up, and then ill paint a bullseye on my chest and put a kill me sign on my back!!!!!!! if i was an officer i would order some other poor bastard to pick it up and if i was part of the rank an file i wouldnt dare pick up that great regimental kill me sign!
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[HWK]Theosis · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:12 pm Post subject:

Well, I don't know the statistics on the survival rate of the standard bearers in battles. It would be interesting perhaps to find out.

I do know though, that in the American Civil War there was a battle in which the Northern troops were being horribly gun-downed by well protected Southerners.

The Southerners were protected by a redoubt made strong and on a rise.

It was a total massacre for the North.

In one part of the battle, the South shot almost the entire unit from the North down with riflefire.

The only surviving man was a young standard bearer.

Apparently in the confusion, the standard bearer did not realize he was the only man left standing as he marched towards the Southern redoubt.

Onward he marched towards apparent certain death.

The Southern soldiers in the redoubt stopped firing and looked on in amazement at this site.

They began to yell out to the standard bearer to "GO BACK".

It took several moments for the standard bearer to realize what was going on. He looked around and behind himself and saw he was the last one left.

What do you think he did at that moment? What would we have perhaps done at that moment?

What he did was stop at the position of attention raising his beloved standard, which represented his fallen brothers in arms.

Next he saluted the enemy. Then he did an about face maneuver and proudly marched away from the redoubt to the cheers of his enemy.

Only God knows what each and every one of us would do in a similar situation. Not only this exact situation but similar situations in life.

Truly as a symbol, the standard represents more than most of us will ever comprehend.

I think in a future battle, the standard bearer I speak of was killed bearing the standard.
Idea

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All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. I shall do something, even if I have to do it myself.

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[HWK]axlethehawk · Posted: Sat Dec 04, 2004 4:16 pm Post subject:

cool story Theo!! Cool

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[HWK]Greenwarrior · Joined: 20 Apr 2004 Posts: 276 Location: A BLUE STATE!

u know what battle, or what year?

Green!
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"Next to a battle lost, the greatest misery is a battle gained"

[HWK]Theosis · Posted: Sun Dec 05, 2004 12:57 am Post subject:

It was June 3, 1864.... The Batlle of Cold Harbor in Virginia.

I can't find his name but here are some interesting civil war sites mentioning gallantry and danger to color-bearers.

http://www.awod.com/gallery/probono/cwchas/charlesw.html

http://www.aphill.org/gregg_sevendays.html

http://www.pacivilwar.com/cwmohd.html

http://www.cwdpa102ndregimentvolinf.com/PA%20102nd%20Flags.htm
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All that is necessary for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing. I shall do something, even if I have to do it myself.

El Shaddai lives!

o0O0o · Joined: 24 Apr 2004 Posts: 63 Location: Wales

yup id pick it up...especially if i was fighting axles bunch of englishmen,couldnt hit a house from 3 yards the drunken nutters. Very Happy

(that was a joke all those from england dont shoot me, not that i think you'd hit me)

jib · Joined: 23 Apr 2004 Posts: 141 Location: Somerset, England,

They'd deal with you in the traditional english way:
pay a scotsman to do it.
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